Hot Available Guy: Virginia Date 2

Hiwote: Previously on dating. 

Virginia: Do you have a list of things you wouldn't do? You don't have to share now. 

Nick: Yeah, I do. 

Virginia: Okay. Maybe one, just tell me one that you would not do. 

Nick: I don't do like dressing up in like weird things like whips and chains and all that bullshit. I don't get involved with that. What do they call it? Dominatrix? I don't do that, like leather. Like pain for me, pain is not pleasure to me. You know what I'm saying?

Virginia: Yes, kind of. Don't share your opinion too much about it.

Hiwote: This is dating a series of recorded first dates.

This is dating. I'm Hiwote. And when we last met Virginia, who is this incredible human rights attorney in her early thirties, living in Washington, DC. She was really trying to work through the heartbreak from her last relationship. 

Virginia: That person was in an open marriage. Then they got divorced a few months after we started dating and he didn't want a relationship right after he's divorced. So that was tough because that I really wanted to be with him. 

Hiwote: So what's a better way to get over a breakup than to date someone really. So we set her up with a male model named Nick. 

Nick: My appearance is the first thing people usually notice. I'm really into fashion. So suiting is my thing. If I told you how many tuxedos at home, it would probably be kind of scary. 

Virginia: Just tell me the number. 

Nick: Nine. 

Virginia: That is a lot. Now I'm judging you based on that. 

Hiwote: It seemed like a good date, but we wanted to do better. So for this one, I'm calling upon my co-producer Eleanor to figure this out with me. 

Eleanor: Hiwote, you know, I really actually appreciate someone who has their own personal style and way of presenting themselves to the world. And it does not have to be in a tux or a gown, but personally, I would be lying if I said, I didn't notice how somebody dresses on a first date.

Hiwote: I mean, okay, Eleanor, I hear you, but like what if someone actually showed up on your date in a tux? 

Eleanor: Well, I guess I would just be like, uh, that time of Moonstruck when Nicolas Cage takes Cher to the opera. So that's fine. 

Cher: Hi. 

Nicolas Cage: You look beautiful, your hair.

Cher: Yeah, I had it done. You look beautiful, too. 

Nicolas Cage: Thank you. 

Hiwote: So let's set Cher aside and bring it back to Virginia. 

Virginia: You know, coming out from a relationship where you love someone so much, you want to feel something similar. 

Logan: A hundred percent.

Virginia: But now that I've had these conversations with you and my ex is not in my head. It's more like, oh, I can give it a try with someone else more than one time, because first dates are awkward. 

Hiwote: What's interesting here is that Virginia's been dating a lot. She just isn't into any of the guys that she goes out with. That's why she's working with Logan Ury, our dating coach, who also happens to be a behavioral scientist.

Logan: When you're coming out of a relationship, you're comparing that relationship with all of its depth and excitement and intimacy to a first date, which is essentially a conversation with a stranger.

Eleanor: I mean, I think our jobs generally on the show are to make those first conversations between strangers less awkward, but that is not really virginia's issue here.

Hiwote: I feel like her bigger issue is trying to figure out what it would really take to feel a spark with someone. 

Eleanor: And the good news is she seems to really know what she likes. She wants to date somebody who lives in our area, around DC, who is currently single, not somebody in an open relationship, and somebody who's actually seeking something monogamous and long-term, and maybe it'll result in children someday. 

Hiwote: Yeah. And bonus, if he's a redhead. 

Eleanor: And, we need to find that person who is all of those things, and emotionally available. But then we did, we found this guy, Andrew, who is exactly what we're looking for. And so before the date really gets started, we put them in a room with Logan for a little predate coaching. 

Logan: If I were to ask your friends, why is Andrew single? What do you think they would say? 

Andrew: That he's too picky. And he typically goes after the same kind of people.

Logan: Uh, do you feel like the pandemic has changed your priorities or what you're looking for at all? 

Andrew: So, yeah, actually. Somebody that I was dating that I met on e-Harmony, she was, she was great, but she was a hundred percent, no kids. And at first I was 50/50. Probably the last five, six years, I've been 50/50. And then my grandmother passed away from COVID and at the funeral. I'm just looking around...

Logan: Sorry to hear that. 

Andrew: Thanks. And and I'm just seeing like the family she built and everything and realizing that I couldn't not do the same, that it was something that was important to me. So then that was what wound up ending that relationship, but it did make me learn a lot about myself, that it is something that's a deal breaker for me.

Eleanor: All right. Sounds like Andrew's ready to go. 

Hiwote: Yeah, let's get this date started. 

Virginia: Hi. 

Hiwote: Hi. 

Andrew: How are you? 

Virginia: I'm good. How are you? 

Andrew: Andrew. 

Virginia: Virginia. 

Andrew: Virginia, nice to meet you. 

Virginia: Nice to meet you.

Eleanor: We are going to start off with a little bit of a scavenger hunt. 

Hiwote: Yeah, so the idea here is that Virginia is going to ask Andrew to go find something in his apartment, and he only has a few seconds to look for it. So he's got to move fast.

Virginia: Are you ready for this? Are you wearing pants? Cause it can be awkward. 

Andrew: I thought somebody would ask. So yes, I am wearing jeans. 

Virginia: Okay, you're a smart man. Smart man. 

Andrew: All right.

Virginia: Okay, okay. Show me the coolest thing you own that isn't expensive. 

Andrew: The coolest thing I own that isn't expensive... 

Virginia: Oh, time. I'm really bad at this game. Okay, 20 seconds.

Andrew: All right. We're going on a trip here. 

Virginia: Okay.

Andrew: So this is the basement. 

Virginia: Don't fall. 

Andrew: And I got this, two weeks ago, this poster, cause I went to... 

Virginia: The fighter? 

Andrew: Yeah, it's a boxer, Canelo Alvarez. 

Virginia: Times up! Yeah, Canelo. 

Andrew: But it wasn't that expensive, but it was really cool because I took my brother to that fight a couple of weeks ago. 

Virginia: Oh, really? 

Andrew: Yeah. And it was just the last time... he had just moved to Dallas and gotten a job at my company that I referred him to. And I got this referral bonus and I'm like, what am I going to do with this bonus? I just spent way too much money on the tickets. And then... 

Virginia: But wait, wait now both of you work for the same company?

Andrew: Yeah. And now he works for my company too. 

Virginia: Are you guys planning to take over? No, yeah, maybe?

Andrew: One day. 

Virginia: Okay. I hope they're not listening to this podcast because then you're going to be in trouble. 

Andrew: They would be lucky if we took over, 

Virginia: Uhhh, I'm not gonna say, I don't know you well enough to say yes or no, but I'm sure no one wants other people to take over the company. Okay. And you also sucked on that time, you took... 

Andrew: What!! 

Virginia: More than 20 seconds, yeah. 

Andrew: That was less than twenty!

Hiwote: I sense chemistry, but maybe I'm just getting my hopes up too early. So what did we actually learn about Andrew from the thing he picked? 

Eleanor: What I think we really learned about him in this moment is more just like who he shows up as on a date, right? He brings this like "Yes, and" mentality. He's just kind of down for having fun and doing something kind of silly and goofy on a date with a new person. And he brings the energy and makes it fun.

Virginia: Yeah. It's not awkward when people are listening in your dates. 

Andrew: Yeah, right. This is the first time I've had people listen in on my dates. Have you done this before? 

Virginia: Like a million times, this is what I do for a hobby. I listen to all of my dates and then they tell me how to do it better. Uh, no, I, i... 

Andrew: Well that's why you're so great now you've had all that practice.

Virginia: Yeah. 

Andrew: What kind of music do you listen to? 

Virginia: I listen to anything. I think it's easier, what I don't listen to. 

Andrew: So what are the items, what are the genres you don't listen to? I don't listen to metal. Yeah, same.

Virginia: Uh, or like very hard rock. Um, let me see, what else? Cause there are like categories or like, I'll listen to some of it, but not that much. And like country's there, Americana's there. 

Andrew: What is like, if you're in a bad mood and you just need to like, get like pick me up and you know, some kind of nostalgic?

Virginia: Um, probably like some type of Latin music. I love merengue like a lot. And also some like. Spanish pop from the nineties is great. And 2000's. 

Like Aventura, or?

Uh, more like Ricky Martin. 

Like that type of like Alex seemed thick. Like those type of, uh, Um, oh, okay. Very cool. 

Andrew: Becky familiar.

okay. Um, come on consult or they negotiate, they processes, uh, uh, Fabrica. I run. Those is if the CNCS, um,

I get so mad if we just do the rest of this in Spanish.

Hiwote: Okay, Andrew, with the fluent Spanish!

Virginia: You know, one thing that I like, I watch everything with subtitles. Like everything, Spanish things, English things, but one thing about audio... 

Andrew: See that's what I need to do to get better. Cause like I'm, I'm okay. I mean, I'm like, almost...

Virginia: I'm going to recommend a show. 

Andrew: Yeah? 

Virginia: Do you know Luis Miguel? Obviously, you know, Luis Miguel right? You know, Luis Miguel. There's a show on Netflix about his life. 

Andrew: Oh yeah?

Virginia: Incredible. 

Nick: What's it called? 

Virginia: Like the acting Luis Miguel: La Serie. You need to watch and they speak good Spanish and it's like good music, cause it's just him and the story of his life and how he became to be what he is. Um, but it's really good Spanish. So I, all of my friends that speak Spanish and they're trying to practice, I tell them, watch that with subtitles. 

Andrew: Yeah, like English, subtitle, or Spanish subtitle? 

Virginia: No, Spanish. You have to put it in Spanish because I think Netflix in the U S automatically puts it in English. 

Andrew: Okay. 

Virginia: Never say I never gave you anything. 

Andrew: I won't, but now I owe you. So I gotta figure out what I can give you. 

Virginia: You can give me music. 

Andrew: All right, all right. How old were you when you came here?

Virginia: Five years ago. So, 26. 

Andrew: Okay.

Virginia: I'm 32, super wise. How old are you?

Andrew: I'm 53. 

Virginia: You don't look a day older. 

Andrew: I appreciate it. I'm 34. I'll be 35 in nine days.

Virginia: Okay. 

Um, are your parents, uh, or were your parents good role models for love? Why, why not? I'll let you go first. 

Andrew: So my father, absolutely not. So my parents divorced when I was one. Um, and he's been married two times since and has been caught cheating with every wife. And he's like the most horrible like husband partner. Not the worst dad in the world. I don't resent him for anything. So very bad example of love. Um, and my mom, she never got remarried, but she's had a boyfriend for the last 20 years and they don't live together. They're separate houses. It's kind of crazy. But, um, I think the love that my mom has shown my brother and I, so she was 27, single mom, two kids, no child support, like had just put my dad through medical school and he left and wasn't paying anything. And like, she's definitely my hero. And she's always shown us like all the love in the world that we need. So...

Virginia: I hope she listens to this. I hope you send her a text today. Telling her how much you love her and admire her if you haven't. 

Andrew: Actually, I haven't talked to her yet today. I usually talk to her almost every day.

Hiwote: He's just so stable. 

Eleanor: Affable is the word that comes to mind for me. 

Hiwote: Or like available? 

Eleanor: Yeah. And like, this is exactly the type of guy that Logan has been trying to get Virginia to be open to.

Virginia: Are my parents good role models, good models for love, I guess. Uh, how do you say like romantic relationship, no. And they got divorced after 25 years of marriage. Um, so no, I don't think so. But they are, you know, like supportive of us, my dad to this day, like he calls me he's like, did I tell you today that I love you? I'm like, no, you haven't please tell me. Uh, yeah. Um, with my mom, it's a different type of love. We're more like, Hey, how are you? Oh, you're okay. Okay. 

Andrew: Yeah. Are they both in the DR still? 

Virginia: Um, no, uh, so my mom is, uh, back home. My dad is in New York. Um, I see him every now and then. Whoever goes. We talk every day.

Andrew: That's awesome. 

Virginia: Do you have siblings? One brother, you said. 

Andrew: Actually I have three. So I have one full brother that I grew up with and then I have two half-brothers. So, which one of my half-brothers he's 22, just graduated college. And he got an internship in DC, but, uh, he needed a place to stay, so I said you can move in with me. So he's moving in on Saturday.

Virginia: So you have more people moving in. 

Andrew: But he doesn't drink. He's like super uber, Catholic, religious. So which... 

Virginia: Are you catholic? 

Andrew: I am Catholic but I'm not, like he's been an altar boy since he was seven. So,

Virginia: What does it mean for you to be Catholic? I want to know, like you say, you're Catholic. What does that mean? 

Andrew: So I was baptized and did confirmation, but, um, now do I go to church every Sunday? No. Do I...

Virginia: But what does it, but why do you say, for example, I did those things and I don't consider myself a Catholic, so... 

Andrew: I still have faith. I mean, not that I agree with all of the politics and craziness that they, you know, sometimes pick political sides or different things, but, um, but no I still have faith. So that's why I consider myself Catholic because I have faith in the foundations of it. 

Virginia: Of the church? 

Andrew: Mhm. 

Virginia: Okay, okay. Interesting. I think I'm agnostic. No, I don't think I know I'm agnostic. Like I believe in something, but I don't, I don't know. I guess I'm just curious when people tell me, like, I'm this religion and I'm not judging you or anything.

Andrew: Yeah. 

Virginia: Do you do good to others? My parents always used to say it's and I try to live my life that way. They're like, it's not enough to not do harm to others. You have to actively do good to them. And I think that's a good way to live. 

Andrew: That's why I got my brother moving in. It's going to be a little weird, totally. 

Virginia: He's like your charity work. 

Andrew: He is like the ultimate, like Trumper catholic wants to be president of the United States. Couldn't be more opposite than me and he needed a place to stay. So I said, no problem. 

Virginia: That's very Christian of you because I'll be like, I'm not doing this. I'm not doing this. 

Andrew: Yeah, we'll see.

Eleanor: I can't totally tell where she's landing with this response. By her saying that's very Christian of you, is she like being kind of snide or is she genuinely impressed at how Andrew is you know, opening his home to his brother. 

Hiwote: Honestly, with Virginia, you really never know, but I think it's both. Like, it's hard to imagine a world where she's not kind of impressed by him taking his brother in.

Virginia: What's something you learned from your last relationship that you want to apply to your next relationship? Uh, something that I learned from my past, I think that if I don't trust someone, if something happens and I stop trusting the person I'm with, it's extremely hard for me to go back from there. I do, like, I think I, I have trust issues. Sometimes I'm not flexible, right? Like I have, I guess some issues being like, oh yeah, things happen. Or like, I understand why you're thinking that way or you're acting that way. And I think like going into a next relationship, I think I have to be more open to have conversations about the things that matter to me or the things that are going to hurt me. I'd rather prevent a situation because it's very hard for me to work on, on trust issues. 

Andrew: Um, were you in a bad relationship years ago that made you lose that trust? 

Virginia: I wouldn't, I wouldn't call it a bad relationship. My last like, serious relationship that was like, oh, I met your entire family, you met my entire family. It was maybe 10 years ago. Um, I did go out with someone for a few years, not too long ago, but it was like a weird situation. And there was a lot of me like, oh, I'm going to accept this, whatever you want, because I want to be with you. And I think I can deal with this and not expressing my feelings. So I feel like I have to be better at expressing what I want and what I'm feeling, before things go south without sounding naggy.

Andrew: Yeah, no, I've had very similar things happen where it just, it builds up over time and you're like, well, I'm not going to bring it up. It's something really small. And then, but in my head, it winds up building up to she's thinking everything's fine. And then it had already built up to me and now I'm just kind of done and I have that conversation and they're blindsided. I mean, that's a couple of years ago, but... 

Virginia: Yeah, definitely. Talking is hard, right, having important conversations, it's hard. 

Andrew: Yeah. That makes you vulnerable, right. You have to open up and you have to talk about feelings and those kinds of things. 

Virginia: Boooooo. 

Andrew: Right. Boo to that. 

Virginia: It would be much better, life without feelings. 

Andrew: Agreed. 

Virginia: I wonder how exciting life would be without feelings or like without ever having your heart broken or without ever feeling love. Just going through life, the emotions.

Andrew: What would there be to live for? That sounds boring.

Hiwote: You know, they're joking here, but really learning to communicate your feelings is such a real thing. And not something many of us know how to do until we're in a relationship that's not working. 

Eleanor: It sounds like they were starting to go kind of deep here and then pulled it back. And so maybe that is like the sign of a little bit of avoidance, but the sort of deep digging that they were doing and the feelings sharing that was happening, it's like the opposite of coming to a relationship with your baggage. You know, you're still coming with the baggage, but you know how to unpack it. 

Hiwote: Right, and it's almost like they're unpacking it early and letting the other person decide if it's something they want to work with or not. 

Right, and that feels like the mark of two pretty experienced daters to me. And I want to hear how they describe what they want in a future partner to each other. Why don't we ask them this?

Andrew: Um, what do we want to hear when you imagine your life in 10 years, who are you with and what are you feeling? Ladies first. 

Virginia: I don't go that far. I don't think, I think of, uh, I dunno. 

Andrew: 10 years, 42. 

Virginia: Um, I want children with, or without a partner. To be honest, I'll probably have children by then maybe one, maybe two, one a favorite. Um, and what are you feeling? I don't know. Hopefully would have a partner too, right. And I guess I would be, I don't know happy. But I think I'm happy now. So that would be like an extension of what it's now, I don't know. You, 10 years? 

Andrew: Um, pretty similar, you know, I would definitely want to have one to two kids and, you know, be in love and feeling love with whoever I'm with. But if it doesn't happen, like back to the independence thing, it's not the end of the world, but definitely something that I'm hoping is there in 10 years. And then also in my career, I hope to be at a certain part, certain point where I'm comfortable with the level that I've achieved and what I've done up to that point.

Virginia: Would you have children without a partner?

Andrew: I don't know. It's tough as, as a guy, you know. Do you do the surrogate thing, do you adopt, I mean, obviously there's a ton of, you know, children out there needing families and things, but, um, I think if it got to a point, I probably would. I mean, I just, I w before I went to, um, before I majored in hospitality and then got into consulting, I was, I wanted to be a teacher, a high school teacher. So like, I just, you know, enjoy being, you know, in the part of the development of, of people and, you know, feel like I've got a lot of things to share, so maybe. I don't know. Honestly, I've never thought about it or been asked that question. 

Virginia: Food for thought, right? I asked you, cause I asked like a male friend and he was like, oh, no one has ever asked me that either, cause he wants to children, but he doesn't have a partner and he's like 40. And I'm like, well, women get these type of questions all the time. Maybe it's time we turn the tables around. 

Andrew: But you can carry your own. But I guess I could have a surrogate. 

Virginia: I would adopt. I wouldn't want to have a biological child by myself, unless it's by mistake. I'm like, oops. Yeah, but... 

Andrew: I mean, if I could adopt kids after like the diaper ages, I think it's a, win-win on both sides. 

Virginia: But you're already there, you're 53. When are you gonna be ready to settle down? 

Andrew: This is true, this is true.

Virginia: Now it's time for our last question. 

Andrew: Oh man. 

Virginia: This is now when you play the drums. 

Andrew: Right? Drumroll. 

Virginia: Is there something you wanted to ask me that you haven't yet? I don't, I don't want to ask you anything. 

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, I feel like we've been through a lot here. Um, I mean, what are you doing this weekend? 

Virginia: Um, I actually have to work. After this date, I'm kind of dating work. Um, I got stuck with like some cases and they're not good. And to be honest, I'm struggling. So I have to finish to file. Um, and then that's it. Do you have any, oh, you have, you're going to your parties. 

Andrew: So that's Saturday, yeah. With my brother moving in and all that. And um, I have Sunday open though. Okay, maybe if... 

Virginia: If I don't work... 

Andrew: If you don't work we can do something. 

Virginia: Yeah. This was, yeah, this was fun. I'm glad that it went well, sometimes I'm always concerned. Like, is this going to be awkward? 

Andrew: Yeah, I mean, you've been doing this for so many years, as you said so, and you do this all the time, so... 

Virginia: But I'm not good at it, it's just, I haven't perfected it. 

Andrew: Well, that's a lie. You were great. 

Virginia: Thank you, you were okay, you were okay. 

Andrew: I've been told that a lot, thanks.

Eleanor: Virginia's answer to Andrew. When he asked her out kind of blindsided me, you know, first it was, I don't want to ask you anything. And now it's like, oh, maybe I'm free, who knows. 

Hiwote: Yeah. 

Eleanor: That honestly was a surprise to me. 

Hiwote: Yeah. And it's disappointing because he was the exact kind of person that she asked for. So honestly, I'm a little confused, but maybe it's the chemistry thing again?

Eleanor: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm really curious what's going on inside Virginia's head and if she can explain it to Logan and then maybe Logan can, you know, help decode it a little bit.

Logan: How was it? 

Virginia: Uh, that went better than, than I thought because of my attitude. 

Logan: Tell me about it. 

Virginia: He was funny and conversation uh flowed. Um, I definitely do like, I'm attracted to people that speak Spanish just because it's my language. It's how I express things. I thought it was very nice of him to take in his brother that is completely different than him. And I'm very close to my family. Uh, but even I draw the line sometimes. I guess that I think of him as a good person. Um, if I were my old self, I would be. I don't want to see him. I don't need to see him again, but I would give it another try and try to see him for drinks in person and see what's up. 

Logan: That feels like growth. What do you mean your old self versus your new self?

Virginia: Um, you know, like, I'm always like, oh, if I don't feel like that instant great connection, I'm like, I'm not doing this again. Like I was thinking about like some other dates that I've been on, even with guys that I end up liking a lot and I stopped thinking, like I started thinking finally, well then most of them, I actually did not like from the very start. So I'm not sure where I, where is it that I got into, if I don't feel this big thing, I'm not going out with you again. I think, you know, coming out from a relationship where you love someone so much, you want to feel something similar, but now, like, you know that I've had this conversations with you, my ex is not in my head. It's more like, oh, I can give it a try with someone else more than one time, because first dates are awkward.

Logan: I love to hear that. Yeah. And I think that's a really, really great insight for you. I'll just say it back to you, which is like, when you're coming out of a relationship, you're comparing that relationship with all of its depth and excitement and intimacy to a first date. And I felt like you did a really good job on the date being present, being interested, asking cool questions, being a good listener. Like I think you get an, a plus for your homework assignment. 

Virginia: Thank you, thank you. 

Logan: You have a goal, which is to find a partner and to have kids. You're willing to have kids with or without a partner, but ideally you get both. And so you're realizing that to achieve the goal of finding a partner, you need to put yourself out there, you need to be open, you need to say yes to second dates, even if the first date isn't 10 out of 10 sparks flying. And so you're really negotiating with yourself to say, how can I show up for myself to achieve this goal? Even if it's a little bit out of my comfort zone? 

Virginia: Yeah. Like for example, I'm not a flexible person, like in real life, if I were to go on a date and someone tells me, my brother is super close minded, he's a Trump supporter, he's super Catholic. These are things that I don't want associated with me, right? So these are things that if I were to have a family, I wouldn't want my kids to be around someone like this. So my first instinct on things like that, it's like, oh, I don't care that liked you. I don't want to go out with you because this is your family. So I think I'm moving a little bit from that, but I think I have to be more open to have conversations, um. 

Logan: Yeah, one exercise that I really like, it's just on a piece of paper, folding it in half and writing red flags on the left and green flags on the right. And red flags are usually really easy to fill out things like, you know, it was disrespectful to me, made me uncomfortable. I think for you, someone where you're not, you don't feel curious about them, you're not interested. But then it'd also be good for you to focus on what are the green flags like, what are the moments where you're like, yes, this is in line with what I'm looking for. And so I imagine like: he was looking for kids that was probably a green flag, the generosity with his brother. It seemed like you liked his bar, like, it seemed like he was fun. And so I think your brain is very attuned to the things you don't like, which is a natural thing called the negativity bias. It's very easy for us to pay attention to what we don't want, but I would encourage you to really focus on what are the things you do want and then pay attention to, does this guy have those green flags? 

Virginia: Yeah, I definitely should do that more because if I think on the positive, I'll probably attract positives rather than think about what I don't want, that I'm going to attract what I don't want. 

Logan: So, you know, are you going to text him? What's going to happen now? 

Virginia: I would like him to text me for a change. I'll text him. If I don't hear from him by tomorrow, I'll text him. 

Logan: Great. 

Eleanor: Um, you know, I'm hearing about Logan is like, you know, if you feel like you're not sure about somebody sit in that. You know, the red flags, green flags and figure out what you do and what you don't like about them. And like, actually break it down, like turn to the data, only here, the data is like her own feelings.

Hiwote: I think that Virginia is not in a place where she actually trusts the data or can like create a space internally where the data she's getting can be filtered correctly. So it's almost like she can't trust the data, which explains why she can't feel chemistry with these people on a first date.

Eleanor: And I'm not saying like all of these guys, she should have felt chemistry with, but I just think. There's a defense up that's not allowing her to trust the data or even to look for good data. Um, I definitely feel like this is not the end of the road yet. 

Esther Perel: You go by Virginia, yes? 

Virginia: Yes. 

Esther Perel: Do you know who I am, who you're speaking to? 

Virginia: I do. I do. I did my research. I did my research. 

Esther Perel: Good, good. 

Hiwote: Next time on dating. 

Esther Perel: When I hear you talk, what I'm hearing you talk about is fear. 

Jesse: If you'd like to be set up by us on a future date, go to thisisdatingpodcast.com. This is Dating is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Nuzum at Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Hiwote Getaneh, Eleanor Kagan and Taelor Hansen. We also received help from Esther Perel, Courtney Hamilton, Robert Smith, Julia Natt, julia Silbergeld, the Quarantine Love Project, Hayden Dawes, Lulu Krause, and Eva Wolchover. Original music production and sound design by Paul Schneider. Logan Ury is our consulting producer and the executive producer of This is Dating is Jesse Baker.